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Author	Topic: Practical uses for ammonia?
Jolly Roger Frequent Poster	posted January 13, 2000 04:51 PM Does anyone know any practical uses for ammonia gas/ammonium hydroxide, as i have homebuilt Haber apparatus, which works, and an almost umlimited supply of ammonia (choke...) P.s. if anyone wants plans for this, post a request!
HMTD Factory Frequent Poster	posted January 14, 2000 05:52 AM Ammonia is very important in chemical industry as NaOH and H2SO4, they are produced in large quantity each year, they become a indicator of a country's industrial activity. The main and relevant use of ammonia would be making nitric acid, modern industry oxidates NH3 to make NO2 and use NO2 and water to make commercial grade nitric acid.
Nitro unregistered	posted January 14, 2000 01:55 PM Yes pleas post it.What steel do you use for the reactor(Hydrogen will destroy carbon steels)?
Jolly Roger Frequent Poster	posted January 14, 2000 04:46 PM I use woodworkers iron wool, which works well, i'll find the piccy and post it soon.
m3nth Frequent Poster	posted January 14, 2000 07:54 PM hmtd factory... do you have any idea how the oxidation of ammonia is done? is this industrial process any different than the do-it-yourself methods for making nitric acid? oxidation cannot be done via electrolysis of ammonia right? thanks... ~m3nth~
*Igenx* Frequent Poster	posted January 14, 2000 08:23 PM No you've got me curious. How do you manage to do this? I"ve looked at my chemistry books before on this subject, and all of them say that this method is not applicable for lab use. How can this be done on a small scale, suitable for personal use?
HMTD Factory Frequent Poster	posted January 14, 2000 10:44 PM m3nth: Not to mention how to oxidize NH3 into NO2 first, the reaction needs a catalyst, platinum(sponge), which is hard to get in the first place, rumor has it that a cheap catalyst other than platinum has been discovered, but I don't know what it is. Electrolysis of ammonia water I tried before, didn't work and very stinky If you still want to know the process I can type some info.
megalomania Administrator	posted January 15, 2000 03:23 AM Gods be praised, Jolly. A big virtual kiss goes out to you if you can get me a working Haber Process. I have mulled over a method of making ammonia in the lab for a long time and have little to go on. Why just this week I was thinking about it while wasting vast quantities of nitrogen filling liquid nitrogen tanks. As for making ammonia, I had no idea a catalyst could be used, that's a big break. The industrial is so dificult because to be feasible you need increadible pressures, pressures that were not obtainible until the 20th century. Nitrogen gas from the air is mixed with hydrogen, the natural equilibrium to ammonia is very very slow. Heating it causes the reaction to speed up, but also for the ammonia to break down. Increasing the pressure makes more ammonia faster. Eventually you reach an optimal condition thats far beyond the capicity of anything any of us could ever hope to buy or get. Of course, ya don't exactly need "optimal" conditions... As for oxidizing ammonia: Ammonia can be oxidized by copper metal instead of ammonia, and I discovered that (well, through research ) basicially you heat the copper (or platinum) to red heat (about 3 seconds in a torch flame) and blow ammonia gas over it. The ammonia combines (burns) with oxygen to form NO which instantly combines with more oxygen to form NO₂. The nitrogen dioxide thus formed is bubbled into water where it form nitric acid and more NO. The heat generated by the burning of ammonia is suficient to keep the copper red hot. Thats the process in a nutshell. Platinum is more efficient and lasts longer, only important to big industry who can afford a million or 2 for platinum gauze. Actually the only reason I stopped my research is because my damn wire was too thin and kept melting. I got some heavy gauge today as a matter of fact. I am looking forward to that continuous process of amonia manufacture ------------------ Visit Megalomania's Explosives and Stuff at http://surf.to/megalomania
nbk2000 Moderator	posted January 15, 2000 06:39 AM Have you tried the copper scrub pads called "Chore Boy"? They're made of some pretty thick copper. It would be every pyros wet dream come true to have a cheap unlimited source of nitric acid. With that, almost anything can become a high explosive. Paper, starch, cotton, gasoline, etc. But until I see some pictures I'll just have to believe it to be hype. I hope its not. ------------------ "The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them." www.50megs.com/nbk2000
Nitro unregistered	posted January 15, 2000 07:21 AM When you burn the ammonia where did you take the O2 for the reaction?When you make holes in an cooper pipe (for the oxigen)the ammonia go throught the holes.Do any one have plans for an construction of the Ostwald proceed. Oh and an nother nice surce of water free Ammonia is NH4CL and CaO.
Jolly Roger Frequent Poster	posted January 15, 2000 04:00 PM Ok, i'll leave you to decide on what equipment you wish to use (if you have access to lab equipment, even better!) Use a fish tank air pump to pump in air, and use a electrolysis thingy to make hydrogen (sorry, not very technical today...), or use bottled hydrogen, you will need a glass container or whatever (jar), with two tubes in one end, and one tube at the other end for ammonia output. Put a large piece of iron wool into the jar, and put the lid on. Make a stand for this, and put a bunsen burner/blowtorch underneath. You will need a beaker of cold water, and a funnel. Put the funnel in the water, upside down, with the tube connected to the output of the ammonia to the thinnest part of the funnel. Heat the iron wool, and pump air and hydrogen through th apparatus. The funnel should bubble, and you should be able to smell some ammonia. Air contains approx. 78% nitrogen, which is enough for the ammonia. You may need to fiddle about with the setup to obtain the best results. This does work, as my science teacher used it to make ammonia in class as a demonstration. If you want a more detailed diagram, email/icq me.
Jolly Roger Frequent Poster	posted January 15, 2000 04:03 PM sorry, forgot to mention - the other reason why it works is 'cos i have done it Enjoy!
m3nth Frequent Poster	posted January 17, 2000 02:19 PM k jolly i got a general idea of the apparatus. question though about the electrolysis... if you make hydrogen and have it in bottles or something but it has the oxygen mixed in will that screw things up? intuition says it wouldn't but are you using pure hydrogen? reason being if you built some kind of electrolysis machine that could not seperate the hydrogen from the oxygen you would be stuck but electrolysis probably works a lot better then foil and draino or whatever you use. so anyway the question is does it have to be 100% hydrogen or could it be a 2:1 mixture with oxygen. thanks... ~m3nth~
megalomania Administrator	posted January 17, 2000 02:42 PM The conversion of NO into NO2 is virtually instantaneous in air. Basically, the only reason NO is mentioned at all is academic, all you need is a little excess of air and it will react completly, the NO does not have a chance. ------------------ Visit Megalomania's Explosives and Stuff at http://surf.to/megalomania
megalomania Administrator	posted January 17, 2000 04:13 PM It is real simple to seperate the products of electrolysis of water. Hydrogen is released at one electrode, oxygen at the other. I'll be damned if I can remember which one is which, I always forget You need to start with a bucket of water, add to it a little bit of acid like sulfuric. I can not recall if any acid will do, but sulfuric acid works. A quick check, the hydrogen electrode bubbles more. If you can fasten a pipe (metal, plastic, rubber, glass, whatever, just as long as it's big enough for you to work with) onto your bucket, and if you can lower the hydrogen electrode down into that pipe, you can collect the hydrogen. The oxygen will be given off at the other. The pipe will be submerged down into the water, the electrode will not be down as far as the pipe. The hydrogen will bubble and rise up, since its in the pipe it gets caught. I would think that you would get more hydrogen from sodium hydroxide and aluminum foil, but then again, you might get too much. I am gonna go out and rig this up right now ------------------ Visit Megalomania's Explosives and Stuff at http://surf.to/megalomania
m3nth Frequent Poster	posted January 17, 2000 07:47 PM well mega i was asking cause i have access to such a device that will give off a two-litre full of h2+o2 gas in one half hour or a gallon an hour and it is a sealed container so you cannot separate the gas coming out. so my question still stands i guess; can the hydrogen be mixed at a 2:1 ratio with oxygen for use in the apparatus described earlier? obviously at a gallon an hour it is easy enough to come by massive amounts of h2+o2 but if it won't work with oxygen mixed in than it would obviously be better to find an alternative source. thanks for any insight you may have... ~m3nth~
megalomania Administrator	posted January 19, 2000 08:04 PM I know in industrial preperation that the presence of oxygen is very bad, leads to harmful side reactions. Considering that this is not at the temperatures and pressures that cause those side reactions, and that we are not as concerned with the "bottom line" like industry, it should not be a problem. ------------------ Visit Megalomania's Explosives and Stuff at http://surf.to/megalomania
Nitro unregistered	posted January 20, 2000 01:23 PM Its that right not all off the Nitrogen and Hydrogen mix reactet out only 30% and than stop the reaction.The remain gas mix is wastet.
*Igenx* Frequent Poster	posted January 22, 2000 04:10 PM Does anyone have a diagram on hand? I think I have the idea, but I don't want to go thru the bother of building the damn thing then end up realizing that I wasted my time. Also, what's the ftp site and password used by the forum? I tried searching for it but the search wasn't working.
m3nth Frequent Poster	posted January 22, 2000 05:01 PM yeah a diagram for this would be nice. i think dlwdaw set up the account on angelfire... i think there is another one that works better for some reason but haven't seen it posted. ftp.angelfire.com user: va2_imagestorage pw: storage ~m3nth~
megalomania Administrator	posted April 01, 2000 03:34 PM Got any new info for us on this one Jolly? I finally have all the equipment to begin testing this out. ------------------ Visit Megalomania's Explosives and Stuff at http://surf.to/megalomania
Nitro unregistered	posted April 01, 2000 04:07 PM I think its to dangerous.When you mix hydrogen and air and heat it to 500 or 700 degrees would the hydrogen react with the oxigen in the air or?And the ammonia "factory" explode.
uberchlor unregistered	posted April 01, 2000 05:45 PM That's why air should be excluded from the process. trace amounts of water could increase the hazard i guess (like with H2 + O2, and Cl2 + H2).
megalomania Administrator	posted April 01, 2000 11:05 PM I can't imagine the temperature getting that high in this system. Maybe 300-400 degrees, or even less. There is no direct flame on the system, it takes a burner some time to boil water even. Perhaps if the pump were placed in a jar with a candle to convert much of the oxygen to carbon dioxide... If excess CO₂ is still a problem, the air can be bubbled through lime water. Of course Jolly said his science teacher does this as does Jolly himself. I will find out for myself when I assemble a working version someday soon. But, thanks for the warning, the more I thing about all that heated hydrogen... I better use tight seals from the hydrogen generator. ------------------ Visit Megalomania's Explosives and Stuff at http://surf.to/megalomania
Nitro unregistered	posted April 03, 2000 06:07 AM Need help with burning ammonia.I make the ammonia gas out of NH4CL and NaOH powder.My idea for the Catalyst is an Cooper pipe with small cooper pipes in it.But my problem is where can i take oxigen for burning ammonia when i make an smalle hole in one part of my "factory" goes there toxic ammonia gas out.Any one an idea to menage this?

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