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Author
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Topic: ethylnitrate
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petn A New Voice
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posted March 25, 2000 08:09 AM
Greetings from Germany! Firstly excuse me for my bad english.I have a question for you. What do you know about ethlynitrate (C2H5NO3)? I have read that it can be made from 65% HNO3 and C2H5OH (i dont known how it is called in english maybe ehtanole or simply alcohol) with urea as a catalyst for this reaction (so i think) by distilling this mix. If it is so, how many urea should be used? And what about mixing ethylnitate with ammonium nitrate to form ANNM like explosive? I know that it is impact sensitive and that it would explode with Na etc. but what about its chemical stability? Thanx, petn [This message has been edited by petn (edited March 25, 2000).]
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uberchlor unregistered
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posted March 26, 2000 05:41 AM
The preperation from nitric acid and ethanol is somewhat difficult and a pain, personally, i wouldn't go through it, and if you let the nitric acid sit with the ethanol for a few hours you get an explosion (as is reported or warned about when the two are let sit with another for a long time). I've made Na explode on contact with water ;-) You could probably form a explosive slurry if you mixed it with Ammonium nitrate, since Ethyl nitrate is in the similar group of nitroglycerine (it's a nitric acid ester), ethyl nitrate can be exploded but owns a detonation velocity lower than Methyl nitrate and nitroglycerine; Detonation velocity: 5,800m/s at density: 1.1g/cc, compared to Methyl nitrate: 6,300m/s at density: 1.217g/cc, Nitroglycerine 7700m/s at density 1.6g/cc. Ethyl nitrate is flammable, more than ethanol. since Ethyl nitrate is like nitroglycerin, a nitric ester, water in the liquid wouldn't be to good to have in it. Ethyl nitrate is much less sensitive to initiation than methyl nitrate, so its shock-sensitivity won't be as high as methyl nitrate or nitroglycerine. A #8 Blasting cap will bring ethyl nitrate to detonation, unless the nitrate is tamped or confined. Mixed with fuller's earth in the proportion of 70/30 or 60/40, it yields a brisant explosive. But ethyl nitrate only has about 48% the energy content of nitroglycerine, and performs about 58% as well as nitroglycerin in the sand test. The urea prevents the nitrous acid formation. The process is dangerous, and unless you have specific instructions from an organic chemistry book, i wouldn't try any random mixing :0)
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uberchlor unregistered
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posted March 26, 2000 05:45 AM
After re-reading my text, what i meant to say was: A #8 Blasting cap will NOT bring ethyl nitrate to detonation, unless the nitrate is tamped or confined. Not: A #8 Blasting cap will bring ethyl nitrate to detonation, unless the nitrate is tamped or confined.
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Nitro unregistered
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posted March 26, 2000 12:14 PM
Can some post how to make this stuff right.And how concentratet should the nitric acid be?
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uberchlor unregistered
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posted March 29, 2000 02:58 AM
The preperation is given in a simple organic chemistry book, such a book in german is "Die Praxis des organischen Chemikers" by Gattermann Wieland.The density of the nitric acid is 1.4g/ml, therefore 67% concentrated, but 65% should work also... sorry, but the translation might be a BIT BAD!: On pages 147-148 of the book mentioned, The preperation of Ethyl nitrate is shown and also discussed. The procedure is as follows: Ethyl nitrate C2H5OH + HNO3 ---> C2H5ONO2 + H2O 250 ml conc. Nitric acid (d = 1.4) is boiled up with 30 g (0.25 mol) Uronium nitrate (which basically is urea nitrate). After cooling, one pours the half of the mixture in a dropping funnel and descending cooler 1-Liter-flask, in which contain 30 g (0.24 mol) Uronium nitrate and 150 ml 95% pure ethyl alcohol. The flask is slowly heated on a sand- or oil bath at 120-130°C (Bath temperature.) Wear Saftey goggles! After about 1/3 of this mixture has been destilled away, mix the second half of the Nitric acid solution with 100 ml 95 % pure ethanol, and let these mix slowly through the dropping funnel. The operation must be carried out one another. And; the mixture of Ethanol and Nitric acid must not be allowed to stand together for a long time (i already explained why, above). When, all has been dripped to, and the liquid in the flask has been distilled away of about 100 ml, one shakes the overgoing Ethyl nitrate for removal of the Ethanol 2 times with water, one time with dilute Sodum carbonate-solution (CO2- is generated!) and then again, once with water (Ethyl nitrate is heavier than water, so it will sink to the bottom), the product is then dried with Calcium chloride and purify the product through distillation out of the boiling water bath (Saftey goggles!), Yield 150-150 g (39-41%) Ethyl nitrate with a boiling point of 86°C. >>>Follow ALL instructions if anyone intends on making it, do not take any guesses, or be ignorant about it. And make SURE you DRY the Ethyl nitrate afterwards! Expose this material to drop weight tests, etc. even though it is not as sensitive, expect the same hazards as Nitroglycerin<<< Ethyl nitrate decomposes with rapid heating, for example in the flame, explosively. It is placed into the same class as Nitroglycerin, which oxidizing and reducing groups contain; therefore Caution! One does not oxidize to ethyl alcohol by pure nitric acid ones under the leading conditions, but it only esterifies. As soon as however tracks of more nitrous acid is present, which are removed above by treating with urea, oxidation occurs by the NO2. Since the nitrogen monoxide, which here from the nitrous acid develops, of which nitric acid ones again to NO2 one oxidizes, the oxidation goes from small beginning gradually further, wins by the occurring reaction-warm at rate and increases finally to a stubborn-mixed, Process like an explosion, One calls reaction accelerations of this type, with which intermediate products increase the rate progressively, autocatalyses. The first product of the oxidation of ethanol is acetaldehyde. Later becomes underother one the level the fulminic acid HC=N->O achieved, which can be seized however only with presence of silver- or mercury ions. With these it forms the barely soluble, against Nitric acid resistant, against impact- and heat-sensitive fulminate (initial explosives). German article: Ethyl nitrat C2H5OH + HNO3 ----> C2H5ONO2 + H2O 250 ml conc. Salpetersäure (d = 1,4) werden mit 30 g (0,25 mol) Uroniumnitrat (Harnstoffnitrat!) aufgekocht. Nach dem Erkalten gießt man die Hälfte der Lösung in einen mit Tropftrichter und absteigendem kühler versehenen 1-L-Kolben, in dem sich 30 g (0,24 mol) Uroniumnitrat und 150 ml 95proz. Ethanol befinden. Der Kolben wird auf einem Sand- oder in einem Ölbad langsam auf 120-130°C (Badtemp.) erhitzt (Schutzbrille!). Nachdem etwa ein Drittel des Inhalts abdestilliert ist, vermischt man die zweite Hälfte der Salpetersäurelösung mit 100 ml 95proz. Ethanol und läßt diese Mishung durch den Tropftrichter langsam zufließen. Die Operation muß hintereinander ausgeführt werden; die Gemische von Ethanol Salpetersäure dürfen nicht längere Zeit stehen bleiben. Wenn, alles zugetropft und die Flüssigkeit im Kolben bis auf etwa 100 ml abdestilliert ist, schüttelt man das übergegangene Ethylnitrat zur Entfernung des Ethanols 2mal mit Wasser, einmal mit verd. Natriumcarbonat-Losung (CO2-Entwicklung!) und dann nochmals mit Wasser aus (Ethylnitrat ist schwerer als Wasser), trocknet uber Calciumchlorid und reinigt das Produkt durch destillation aus dem siedenden Wasserbad (Schutzbrille!), Ausbeute 150-160 g (39-41 %) Ethyl nitrat mit Sdp. 86°C.
Ethyl nitrat zersetzt sich beim raschen Erhitzen, zum Beispiel in der Flamme, explosionsartig. Es gehört in die gleiche Klasse wie Nitroglycerin, die oxidierende und reduzierende Gruppen enthält; darum Vorshicht! Ethylalkohol wird durch reine Salpetersäure unter den voranstehenden Bedingungen nicht oxidiert, sondern nur verestert. Sobald aber Spuren von salpetriger Säure vorhanden sind, die oben durch die Behandelung mit Harnstoff entfernt werden, tritt durch das NO2 Oxidation ein. Da das Stickstoffmonoxid, das hierbei aus der salpetrigen Säure ensteht, von der Salpetersäure wieder zu NO2 oxidiert wird, geht die Oxidation von kleinen Anfängen sukzessive weiter, gewinnt durch die auftretende Reaktionswarme an Geschwindigkeit und steigert sich schließlich zu einem stürmischen, explosionsartigen Proceß. Reaktionsbeschleunigungen dieser Art, bei denen Zwischenprodukte die Geschwindigkeit progressiv steigern , bezeichnet man als Autokatalysen. Das erste Produkt der Oxidation des Ethanols ist Acetaldehyd. Später wird unter anderem die Stufe der Knallsäure HC=N->O erreicht, die aber nur bei Gegenwart von Silber- oder Quecksilberionen gefaßt werden kann. Mit diesen bildet sie die schwerlöslichen, gegen Salpetersäure beständigen, gegen Schlag und Hitze empfindlichen Fulminate (Initialzünder).
- "Die Praxis des organishen Chemikers" Gattermann Wieland. Pages 147-148, whole article on Ethyl nitrate.
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uberchlor unregistered
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posted March 29, 2000 03:01 AM
Greetings from a German, in America!
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uberchlor unregistered
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posted March 29, 2000 04:42 PM
I probably should have said that before i started posting information :-/
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Nitro unregistered
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posted March 30, 2000 11:08 AM
What are you doing there?(in america) Student? Or with the army?Roket troops in New Mexico or Luftwaffe?
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uberchlor unregistered
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posted March 30, 2000 04:56 PM
I moved from germany to america when i was about 6 or 7, then got an interest in explosives, and the like. When i was about 12 or 13. Experimenting with common materials, as i wanted to know more (much more), so i started researching the stuff ever since i was 13, still am now, but trying to understand more of the physical chemistry side.No, i'm not in the luftwaffe(airforce).
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uberchlor unregistered
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posted March 30, 2000 08:45 PM
I also mistyped "HC=N->O" on fulminic acid, and that it is a triple covalent connected bond, not an "=N" double bond.
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Nitro unregistered
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posted March 31, 2000 07:18 AM
What min concentration of nitric acid would work for making silverfulminat or mercury fulminat.And is there another way to do this without nitric acid?
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uberchlor unregistered
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posted March 31, 2000 05:33 PM
For minimum concentration i'm not too sure about, but the lowest grade concentration of HNO3 to make silver fulminate i can think of is with a density of 1.34 (56% conc.), basically any concentration will work that is strong enough to dissolve the silver forming silver nitrate, nitrogen oxides, water. when i dissolved silver in HNO3, it only actually dissolved when i heated the solution (60-65% HNO3) containing silver, and releasing the very poisonous red-brown nitrogen dioxide(NO2).With mercury it was different, simply adding mercury to a strong solution of HNO3 (98% fuming) caused it to dissolve very quickly, with the generation of the toxic NO2 fumes. Yes, there are other ways of producing it without nitric acid using other compounds, but these compounds are far harder to get and possibly more toxic than nitric acid. Nitric acid method would be the simplest.
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uberchlor unregistered
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posted March 31, 2000 05:42 PM
Also note that the Mercury nitrate formed is Highly Poisonous, especially since it's in solution, meaning it will be more readily absorbed into the skin! where the mercury can do its dirty work!Also, if you are dissolving metals in nitric acid, note that those red-brown, horrible rotten-egg smelling gases (NO2, NO, traces of N2O4 in colder atmoshpere) are Extremly poisonous, and severily health damging, the toxic effects of these gases usually takes effect in a few minutes/hours or days. wear a saftey breathing apparatus, wear a gas-mask if one has to!!
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Ho ju Moderator
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posted March 31, 2000 06:26 PM
That and i have heard it is EXTEREMLY sensitive to shock heat and friction so if you do end up making it just be advised that it is even bitchier than AP------------------ -Knowledge is power, power leads to corruption, corruption is a crime, crime doesn't pay. So if you know to much you will go broke!!!
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Nitro unregistered
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posted April 01, 2000 06:32 AM
OK.Someone have write it can used cooper instand the other metalls.Will this work and will this work with 53% nitric acid.Cooper and HNO3 will produce more NO2.The NO2 is the oxidizer for the fulminat rection or?It oxidized the Alcohol into the fulminic acid.
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uberchlor unregistered
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posted April 01, 2000 11:41 AM
I'm betting there is a chance that copper could work, but then again i've never heard of copper fulminate produced this way, so i have my doubts that it also may not work. Some fulminates are unstable, and highly sensitive to bump, scrape, etc. even when wet silver fulminate can explode.Here's an interesting article from "The Chemistry of Powder & Explosives": (About the mercury fulminate forming.) The chemical reactions in the preperation appear to be as follows. (1) The alcohol is oxidized to acetaldehyde, and (2) the nitrous acid (from nitric oxide and nitrogen dioxide formed that react with the moisture to from HNO2.) which is formed attacks the acetaldehyde to form a nitroso deriative which goes over to the more stable, tautomeric, isonitroso form. CH3-CH2-OH --> CH3-CHO -----> CH2-NO-CHO (Nitrosoacetaldehyde) <-- --> CH=N-OH-CHO (Isonitrosoacetaldehyde) (3) The isonitrosoacetaldehyde is oxidized to isonitrosoacetic acid, and (4) this is nitrated by the nitrogen dioxide which is present to form nitroisonitrosoacetic acid. CH=N-OH-CHO ---> CH=N-OH-COOH (Isonitrosoacetic acid) ---> C-NO2-COOH=N-OH (Nitroisonitrosoacetic acid) (5) The nitroisonitrosoacetic acid loses carbon dioxide to form formonitrolic acid which (6) decomposes further into nitrous acid and fulminic acid, and (7) the fulminic acid reacts with the mercury nitrate to form the sparingly soluble mercury fulminate which precipitates. NO2-C=N-OH-COOH ---> NO2-CH=N-OH (Formonitrolic acid) ----> HONC ---> Hg (ONC)2 (Mercury fulminate) Alright just buy the book! it'll even teach you about interesting compounds that you've never heard of before!
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uberchlor unregistered
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posted April 01, 2000 11:42 AM
:-)
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uberchlor unregistered
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posted April 01, 2000 11:47 AM
53% should work, since it'll dissolve the copper (any undissolved Copper should be removed) with nitrogen oxides formation.
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uberchlor unregistered
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posted April 01, 2000 12:02 PM
It seems that this has turned into a "Ethyl nitrate and Fulminate" thread. Anyway, if anyone plans on preparing fulminates, take extreme caution!, prepare only very small amounts, no larger than 1gram! for they are highly sensitive towards shock, friction, bumping, scraping, and heat. Silver fulminate is far more sensitive to shock than Mercury fulminate! Also one must know that fulminates are Extremely Poisonous!!
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Nitro unregistered
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posted April 01, 2000 12:33 PM
I ve heard in the Ammo factories is the max ammount an every work place 100g Mercury fulminate.
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überchlor Frequent Poster
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posted April 18, 2000 03:00 AM
Mercury fulminate was prepared in 0.5-1 kg batches, and this was considered to be a relatively large scale process. Infact, Mercury fulminate no longer finds use in the USA. And Mercury fulminate is considered to be one of the most sensitive of detonating agents.
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