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School Massacres

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Author	Topic: School Massacres
nbk2000 Moderator	posted February 05, 2000 08:49 PM Tonight on "Americas Most Wanted" they're going to have a segment that tells students and teachers what to do if someone starts shooting at their school. I saw a little advert clip showing a person spraying the gunman with a fire extinguisher, and someone going up through the ceiling panels. If this is the best they have to offer then they're dead meat. But I would like anyone who can to watch this and tell me what they think about the "tips" they'll be showing. If there's any good ones, how to defeat them, and any OK ones, how to improve them. Guns of your own obviously, but other than that. ------------------ "The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them."
dlwdaw Frequent Poster	posted February 05, 2000 09:30 PM I'am just about to watch it... it is fucked up. I saw te previews and they showed the kids hiding behind fucking particle board tables. after 1 or 2 shots of any gun bigger than a .38 it would break... it might stop the bullet but it would be blasted apart. and the cielings in my school barely hold themselves up.. if a 150 pound student tried to climb up into one he would fall and make himself even more vulnerable. and they showed whoever spraying the massacrerer(sp?) with a fire extinguisher.. but I wasnt looking too hard but I think the guy was wearing a mask.. DURRH! thats not going to be very effecive.. ------------------ C:\>deltree C:\ are you sure? y/n: y BEEP!
dlwdaw Frequent Poster	posted February 05, 2000 09:41 PM "spread liquid soap on the floor of the bathroom, if the shooter trips you have just enough time to jump over him" fucking idiots. the kids should grab his gun and shoot him.... or grab the gun and run.. that sucked ass.... the tips werent helpful. damn fucking 5 minutes long. that really wasnt worth watching, I could have been watching something better... well ya never know ------------------ C:\>deltree C:\ are you sure? y/n: y BEEP!
Ho ju Moderator	posted February 06, 2000 12:58 AM i have thought about this subject ever since the first school shooting and i have always thought this would work (with a little luck of course...assuming he doesn't just mow you down right off) lets say you are in the cafeteria and a loan gun man walks in and starts to shoot a few kids. when he turns the gun at you pick up an orange (or apple or pear) and whip it at his head. when he flinches (have you ever had something thrown at you really hard...or even fake thrown at you? you always flinch) bumb rush him and brain him with a tray. get some of your friends in on it and you can take him down with ease. (even if you miss odds are he will flinch) if you are in a classroom use a pencil or a book. people are always scared of things comeing at them regardless of how much in control they think they are. now if he is just shooting randomly (holding down the trigger and spinning in circles i would suggest running like a black man that just raped a white girl) another thing you could do is sneak up behind him when he is walking through the halls. through all the gun fire he will never hear you (if he does you are screwed) walk up behind him and slam him over the head with a really really heavy book and then take his gun and tie him up...or kill him. these are just some thoughts. you would have to have some mighty big balls to attempt anything like this. we can all say we would but only a select few would actually go through with it. ------------------ -Knowledge is power, power leads to corruption, corruption is a crime, crime doesn't pay. So if you know to much you will go broke!!! http://members.xoom.com/Splynncryth
nbk2000 Moderator	posted February 06, 2000 01:37 AM I too was very disappointed. Hiding behind tables, how pathetic. The things can barely stand the weight of the books. The ceiling trick would work for 1 person, but a whole classroom? Don't think so. The 2 sensible things they said were "break out the windows and run" and "Use an extinguisher as a smoke screen". Using it to spray the gunman is an act of desperation. Everything else was bunk too. Especially the soap on the floor. That was lame. I must say that I had expected better from AMW, but I guess they don't know how to deal with people who aren't running away but rather running towards their destinies. One idea they didn't mention was setting off the fire alarm. The noise would help mask any sounds you make in your escape attempts. ------------------ "The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them."
Pyroboy Frequent Poster	posted February 06, 2000 07:41 AM NBK, I don't really know how the US works, but I would think that if someone came into the school and started shooting that somone would set of the fire alarm anyway?? I dunno. MATT
Predator Frequent Poster	posted February 06, 2000 07:51 AM Soap on the floor... now that is just stupid. You go and put liquid soap on the floor, the shooter walks in and he slips over. You run over and try to jump him and you slip too. fall beside him and get shot. Very helpfull that A different possibility is for 2 students to stand either side of the door, waiting for the shooter to come in. Have the rest of the students ready to throw their books ( all of them ) at the shooter so that he'll try to block them when he bursts through the door. Then the 2 students waiting at the door jump him and disarm him. simple. But if he's got a block of AP strapped to his body their fucked Regards -Predator
nbk2000 Moderator	posted February 06, 2000 09:10 AM I've only heard of 2 occasions that a fire alarm was set off in a school shooting. First time when 2 boys set it off on purpose so the school would evacuate to the yard where they gunned down the students. The second time when the Littleton killers set off the smoke alarms with their bombs. Only in the first instance was it's use intentional. All the other shootings I've heard about, they never said anything about the fire alarms being set off, by killers or victims. Personally, I think the killers would benefit most from setting off an alarm before they start shooting. Wait till the victims are packing the hallways to leave, then nail them with bombs, molotovs, chemicals, and full-auto. Maximum firepower. ------------------ "The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them."
Ho ju Moderator	posted February 06, 2000 12:54 PM well i feel like an idiot telling you guys this but at our school we had a stpud ass drill to practice for a potential shooter and guess what we did we (in the rooms) locked the door, turned off the lights and huddled in the corner!!! talk about stupid. some guy could come along, smash the glass on the door, drop in a pipe bomb and BOOM we are all fucked. hell he could even shoot throught he window like a sniper and just keep picking people off! it was sooooo fucking stupid. ------------------ -Knowledge is power, power leads to corruption, corruption is a crime, crime doesn't pay. So if you know to much you will go broke!!! http://members.xoom.com/Splynncryth
dlwdaw Frequent Poster	posted February 06, 2000 02:19 PM hahahaahaha whoever thought of that was an idiot... the shooter knows that it is i midday and all the lights would be ON, so it is better to have the lights on.. if the lights are off the shooter probably knows there is someone inside like on the movies.... I'am not a psycho who shoots schools, and I'am not going to be.. but if I was I would go in the rooms witht he lights off, first. and the tables wouldnt top a bullet, like NBK said they barely hole up books. when they slammed those tables down I thouught they were gonna snap in half... and the thing about when you run for the exit to kind of alternat which side your on. if the shooter is in the same hall way you are dead.. after seeing you do the alternate thig once he knows what your going to do... and you are dead... TV is so dumb..... ------------------ C:\>deltree C:\ are you sure? y/n: y BEEP!
West Frequent Poster	posted February 06, 2000 11:56 PM on that hiding behind table issue, one of the fun things ive been doing of late is shooting 1/2" steel plates .. and its bloody suprising what it takes to stop a bullet.. anything with a bit of power will plough strait through it. another interesting point is that velocity seems more important than energy.
Ho ju Moderator	posted February 07, 2000 12:31 AM well it all depends on waht you want to shoot. velocity helps when shooting soft targets (animals) at 200 yards. but when trying to shoot through concrete or steel the energy of a bullet has alot to do with what happens. i have a 1000fps .177 pellet gun and it is pretty weak against antyhing that is actally hard. i mean it can shoot clear through a squirrel at 40 yards but it will only go halfway into a ply wood board at 20. now to put this all into perspective a .308 police sniper rifle (with noise supression) has a muzzle velocity of about 1020 fps yet it can shoot through a hell of alot of shit at close and long range. this is due to the fact that the energy of the bullet is so much more then my .177 cal air rifle it is not even funny. (in short a heavier bullet going the same speed as a lighter bullet is going to do alot more cause it has more energy. and to sum up what i have said energy IS VERY IMPORTANT) ------------------ -Knowledge is power, power leads to corruption, corruption is a crime, crime doesn't pay. So if you know to much you will go broke!!! http://members.xoom.com/Splynncryth [This message has been edited by Ho ju (edited February 07, 2000).] [This message has been edited by Ho ju (edited February 07, 2000).]
West Frequent Poster	posted February 07, 2000 01:00 AM i came back to delete that post but it seems its already been replied to. Anyway yeh it was wrong for me to use the reference to energy Vs velocity. What it should have been is sectional density and energy are the major factors in regards to penetration, say a .308 will penetrate furthur than the .444 even though the 444 contains more energy..
Ho ju Moderator	posted February 07, 2000 01:29 AM well energy and velocity have some to do with penetration there are some other factors to consider also. like the object you are shooting at (duh) also the kind of bullet you are shooting. a .308 bullet with a FMJ will penetrate farther into a concrete slab at 100 yards then a .308 lead bullet. hell a lead bullet will only probly scratch the surface. also there is hollow pointed bullets to consider, range, the amount of powder (which translates into raw energy and velocity but i thought i would add it.) after reading your post again i think i misunderstood what you said. you are exactly right when saying density (FMJ opposed to solid lead with no steel coating) and energy have everything to do with penetration. i just thought i would throw in a few more factors to consider. ------------------ -Knowledge is power, power leads to corruption, corruption is a crime, crime doesn't pay. So if you know to much you will go broke!!! http://members.xoom.com/Splynncryth [This message has been edited by Ho ju (edited February 07, 2000).] [This message has been edited by Ho ju (edited February 07, 2000).]
HMTD Factory Frequent Poster	posted February 07, 2000 04:04 AM That film is probably made under public pressure cuz its ideas are worse than home alone movies, but any protection is better than no protection at all. For the shooter bullet I wonder, cuz if the shooter came in to shoot people, he probably will load his gun with ammo that has lowest penetration and best expansion upon impact, which is the best for body damaging and worse material penetration... [This message has been edited by HMTD Factory (edited February 08, 2000).]
Ho ju Moderator	posted February 07, 2000 01:46 PM come on now...who in the hell would go that far in a school shooting? of course if anyone that posts here did it they would go for maximum expansion and low penetration but how many other people (they are like 12 and 13 year olds) would do that? they just pick up a gun and shoot it. the one where they pulled the fire drill had the kid shooting from a distance with a .22! ------------------ -Knowledge is power, power leads to corruption, corruption is a crime, crime doesn't pay. So if you know to much you will go broke!!! http://members.xoom.com/Splynncryth
West Frequent Poster	posted February 08, 2000 01:24 AM full jacketed military ammo (unless specifically armour piercing) will be no more effective at penetrating hard targets than the lead tipped hunting ammo, actually ive seen a mil. 6.5 leave nothing but a smear on a plate simular to the one bellow whereas the 25 went strait through... funny how things happen. [This message has been edited by West (edited February 08, 2000).]
nbk2000 Moderator	posted February 08, 2000 06:34 AM Military FMJ will penetrate better than a same caliber hollow point. But won't penetrate as much as a hunting bullet because the FMJ has a monolithic core, while most hunting bullets are partitioned into 2 sections. The front is an expanding hollow point, the base is a solid lead core. The 2 sections seperated by a copper divider. This keeps the bullet from deforming and blowing apart like a monolithic core bullet will. Plus, hunting rifles are more powerful than military rifles of the same caliber. Shoot a watermelon with a 7.62mm NATO bullet and you'll blow a chunk off. Shoot it with a 7mm hunting round and it will explode. Higher velocity. Military rifles are designed to kill 200 pound animals, hunting rifles are for 2,000 pound animals. Hence the difference. As for a school shooter, they've pretty much just used whatever was in their dads gun cabinet. Except for the columbine killers, they bought their own. I think they made a big mistake using 9mm weapons. Pistol rounds are weak compared to a rifle, but a rifle isn't suitable for close range mass murder like a shotgun is. A 12 gauge loaded with 000 buckshot (poisoned per instructions on my website) would do much more killing. Add a duck bill choke to spread out the shot into a horizontial pattern (this months Small Arms Review magazine) and you have the ideal killing weapon. It would spread out a dozen pellets per shot in a wide, narrow, horizontial belt, and just 1 pellet would be fatal. Your goal wouldn't be to blast a hole in any one person, but rather to get as many people with a pellet as possible, even if only a minor flesh wound. They may not die that day, but as the week goes by, the body count would continue to rise. Since almost everyone whos done this has been an early teen, it's not surprising that they didn't plan the attacks out more throughly. But if an adult was going to do what Patrick Purdey did in stockton, then they would hopefully be more prepared. Have sheets with a URL painted on them for a website explaining the intentions and/ or demands of the gunman, a cell phone to talk to the media for interviews, hostage bomb collars to keep the SWAT team from rushing in and killing you before you get heard, a computer with a huge e-mail address list that will automatically send out e-mail (spam) to hundreds of thousands of people telling them about your URL or maybe it's a manifesto. Get your message heard so the cops don't have control of the media. At least when your killed, you know you got your side heard. ------------------ "The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them."
Maddoc Frequent Poster	posted February 18, 2000 12:44 PM Recently, in London (England) there was an incident where a kid walked into his classroom and sprayed the place with...... Pepper spray. How goodam stupid.... ------------------ Whoa, where my fingers?
nbk2000 Moderator	posted February 18, 2000 03:22 PM He probably used pepper spray since that was the only thing he could get his hands on. England, being a 3rd world country when it comes to guns, has none. Although it wouldn't have been very difficult to make poison gas to use instead of pepper spray. ------------------ "The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them."
Ho ju Moderator	posted February 18, 2000 04:04 PM yeah but only a handful of WANNABE kid terrorists would even think of making gas let alone know how to do it/actualy do it. you have to remember not everyone thinks like the handful of people that post on this forum. you and i may think it is easier than sin to kill a mass of people but others would have trouble with it (is that a good or bad thing ) ------------------ -Knowledge is power, power leads to corruption, corruption is a crime, crime doesn't pay. So if you know to much you will go broke!!! http://members.xoom.com/Splynncryth
The Juice Frequent Poster	posted February 19, 2000 04:26 AM What worries me is that the program was actually made in the first place. If the risk of a gunman walking into a school and murdering the children is so high, armed security guards should be present, and perhaps some of the teachers should also be armed and TRAINED how to use their guns in a violent confrontation. If there was a significant danger of that happening in my college, I would arm myself with a gun, or at the very least a large knife. It's all very well teaching people to hide behind tables and spray the gunman with a fire extinguisher (that made me laugh!), but in reality an unarmed child is no match for a person armed with a gun. As a non-American, I have trouble believing that schools have to have a "fire-drill" type strategy for this kind of situation. England is not a third world country, it's a nanny state. There are however about 3 million illegal guns on the black market, the number of legally held handguns was only a hundred thousand or so before they were banned. According to official reports, more are coming in every week. There was a story in the paper a few months ago about a shipment of ecstasy being shipped in, along with 20 handguns and a sub-machine gun. I've no doubt that most of the guns were intended for sale to the dealers along with the drugs. In some parts of Manchester, carrying a gun is a fashion for young people. cheers, Juice

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