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Author	Topic: Ammonium, chlorates,
VeHeMT Frequent Poster	posted October 28, 1999 04:25 PM What details would anybody be able to provide about the thought of electrolysing Ammonium (per)chlorate. Ammonium Chloride is present in dry cell batteries, along with Manganese Dioxide and Carbon. The Carbon could be filtered out, as for the Manganese Dioxide, you could try to filter it. And if that does not work something else will need to be done. If this is a hopeless idea, is there any other sources of obtaining Ammonium Chloride? Chlorates(even perchlorates) are very dangerous. Ammonium bearing chemicals are also very dangerous. Ammonium (Per)Chlorate is extremely dangerous. It can detonate much easier then Ammonium Nitrate. Any thoughts about the production of Ammonium Perchlorate production would be quite useful, since it isnt the cheapest thing to aquire through the mail. Also I would bet they would keep tabs on who bought it just aswell.
Ho ju Moderator	posted October 28, 1999 09:25 PM we used ammonium chlorate in are chem lab not two days ago. if you had asked the question before we had done it i could have obtained a shit load of this. Ohwell. how sensitive is it to a blasting cap. would you still have to use a number 8 or 10 to detonate it? ------------------ Knowledge is power, power leads to corruption, corruption is a crime, crime doesn't pay. So if you know to much you will go broke!!
megalomania Administrator	posted October 29, 1999 04:43 PM I have seen the equations and the explanitions for the conversion of a chloride (-Cl like salt) to perchlorate. The conversion was for sodium chloride, and is quite nice. I suppose this can hold true for any chloride (I don't have that book here anymore damnit or I would check). In short, any "chloride" could be made into a "perchlorate" by zapping it. As the perchlorates lab is the last thing to do on my website for the Great Edit (yeah!) and, hmm, ammonium perchlorate just happens to be next (I should be working on that now ) I will have the "chemical" means of production available by the Nov, 1 1999 update. If you want ammonium chloride, you COULD buy ypurself a $100 worth of batteries, and you COULD scrape all of the crap out of them. OR... You could mix grocery store ammonia with hardware store hydrochloric acid and end up with ammonium chloride in water Thats a whole hell of a lot easier in my opinion. You could even use that solution as is... ------------------ Visit Megalomania's Explosives and Stuff at http://surf.to/megalomania
nbk2000 Moderator	posted October 29, 1999 05:41 PM Or you could just buy it from any chemical supplier for a few dollars a pound, no questions asked. Failing that, hardware stores and welding shops carry it also as a fluxing agent. Comes in 1/4 pound blocks for a couple bucks. If you need to make it, put the ammonia in flask 1, the HCL in flask 2, and a small amount of water in flask 3. You heat F1, the ammonia fumes are passed into the acid through a tube at the bottom of F2, and residual fumes are absorbed in F3. When the reaction is done, take the contents of F2 and F3 and evaporate them in the sun till dry. ------------------ "The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them." www.50megs.com/nbk2000
Fjp92 Frequent Poster	posted October 29, 1999 06:46 PM Do you want to make Amonia chlorates rates or perchlorates. I noticed that in one of the posts some one sayd something about working with (amonia clorate). I have found from a reliable sourse that amonia chlorates is higly unstable, it said something aboud dont ever mix chlorates with amonium salts cause hihgly unstable amonium chlorate might form. But for perchlorate the recristalysation from a nother amonium salt and a perchlorate may be used. This is how it is done industrialy i belive. Perchlorates can be made by electrolisys but PbO2 electrodes must be used. Carbon is not durable enougth to make perchlorates. sory for shit spelling
Fjp92 Frequent Poster	posted October 29, 1999 06:46 PM Do you want to make Amonia chlorates rates or perchlorates. I noticed that in one of the posts some one sayd something about working with (amonia clorate). I have found from a reliable sourse that amonia chlorates is higly unstable, it said something aboud dont ever mix chlorates with amonium salts cause hihgly unstable amonium chlorate might form. But for perchlorate the recristalysation from a nother amonium salt and a perchlorate may be used. This is how it is done industrialy i belive. Perchlorates can be made by electrolisys but PbO2 electrodes must be used. Carbon is not durable enougth to make perchlorates. sory for shit spelling
slim unregistered	posted October 31, 1999 12:13 AM I would like to know is ammounium Perchlorate a better oxidizer to use in flash powder instead of potassium chlorate.
VeHeMT Frequent Poster	posted October 31, 1999 10:41 AM There are two MAIN uses for Ammonium oxidizers, High Explosives and rocket/ballistic propellant oxidizers . If you just want ammonium perchlorate as the oxidizer because you want some bad ass flash powder, forget it. It's too costly and its not the best oxidizer for the job, stick with potassium perchlorate. Thanks for the ideas on how to make ammonium chloride guys =]
megalomania Administrator	posted November 02, 1999 01:14 PM You don't need to worry about heating the ammonia to bubble it into the HCl, you can just mix the chemicals directly, very slowly, its kinda like titration. Pour alot of ammonia into a "container" (whatever you desire) and slowly add the acid. Since HCl is alot more concentrated than ammonia (~30% vs. ~4%) you need alot less. ------------------ Visit Megalomania's Explosives and Stuff at http://surf.to/megalomania
VeHeMT Frequent Poster	posted November 02, 1999 04:37 PM Yes, It would appear I added too much HCL, as when I tested it with litmus, it appeared bright purple/red =] I will try again when the rain stops so I can gain access to my garage I will try this time with small increments and testing it as I add more to avoid what happened the first time. Hehehe
Nitrochem A New Voice	posted November 02, 1999 08:59 PM The electrolysis would probably work but I think a side product of electrolysing NH4Cl is NCl3--which is dangerously unstable.
nbk2000 Moderator	posted November 02, 1999 10:23 PM The reason for heating the ammonia is because common ammonia products contain detergents and salts that would contaminate the resulting product. And impurities are to be avoided as a general rule when making explosives. If you were just making it for smoke additive then it wouldn't be nessecary. ------------------ "The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them." www.50megs.com/nbk2000
VeHeMT Frequent Poster	posted November 02, 1999 11:03 PM No I have the PURE ammonia hydroxide(solution). From the grocery store :]
fart unregistered	posted November 03, 1999 07:16 PM To make ammonium chloride, buy ammonium sulfate fertilizer( it comes about 95% pure) and buy calcium chloride from tractor tire places where its used to fill tires with concentrated liquid as antifreeze. both are cheap. Mix them in the balanced ratio to cause ammonium chloride and calcium sulfate. The calcium sulfate is almost zero soluble so it ought precipitate out rapidly, leaving ammonium chloride in solution. 2Ca Cl2 + (NH4)2 SO4= 2NH4 Cl+ 2Ca SO4 2x164 132 2x 53 2x 136 wts 328 ozs chloride of lime with 132 ozs of ammonium sulfate and get 106 ozs of ammonium chloride in solution and 272 ozs of chalk precipitated. If you make ammonium chlorate do test the first batch for friction, and impact sensitivity for my book says its very sensitive. It also says chlorate and sulfur is very sensitive. I consider chlorate and red phosporus very sensitive, but think sulfur and chlorate are merely to be respected, and not abused. Anyway test to be personally sure how much abuse it will not tolerate.
fart unregistered	posted November 03, 1999 07:22 PM To make ammonium chloride, buy ammonium sulfate fertilizer( it comes about 95% pure) and buy calcium chloride from tractor tire places where its used to fill tires with concentrated liquid as antifreeze. both are cheap. Mix them in the balanced ratio to cause ammonium chloride and calcium sulfate. The calcium sulfate is almost zero soluble so it ought precipitate out rapidly, leaving ammonium chloride in solution. 2Ca Cl2 + (NH4)2 SO4= 2NH4 Cl+ 2Ca SO4 2x164 132 2x 53 2x 136 wts 328 ozs chloride of lime with 132 ozs of ammonium sulfate and get 106 ozs of ammonium chloride in solution and 272 ozs of chalk precipitated. If you make ammonium chlorate do test the first batch for friction, and impact sensitivity for my book says its very sensitive. It also says chlorate and sulfur is very sensitive. I consider chlorate and red phosporus very sensitive, but think sulfur and chlorate are merely to be respected, and not abused. Anyway test to be personally sure how much abuse it will not tolerate.
rolf nixon Frequent Poster	posted November 19, 1999 09:20 AM Here is some more info on AMP wich I find prety impresive SILICONE OIL/AMMONIUM PERCHLORATE PLASTIQUE This plastique is easily made. Percursers are very simple to obtain. This mixture of ammonium prechlorate and copper chromite has all the power that R.D.X. has. I do not believe the detonation velocity will be as high however. It is cap sensitive and very powerful. The copper chromite component of this explosive composition is available as a chemical reagent and as a catalyst. Ammonium perchlorate is widely available as an oxidizer in pyrotechnics, solid rocket propellents, and JATO motor construction. This explosive plastique would be a very good choice if the percursers are available. MANUFACTURE- Take 1 parts by weight of silicone paste (Dow Corning Silastic 126 or equivalent) and 2 parts silicone oil (Dow Corning Product #9996 or equivalent) and place in a stainless steel pan. Add to this .015 part benzoyl peroxide. Stir in well. Heat this mixture to 135 degrees for 15 minutes and let the thick gell cool. In another container 95 parts of ammonium perchlorate are mixed carefully with 5 parts copper chromite. These are of course finely powdered before mixing. Mix these together until a uniform mixture is obtained. Fifteen parts of this gell are added to 85 parts the explosive mixture from above. This mixture is kneaded until a very uniform consistency exists. This will yield an explosive of great power and very good plasticity. One would want to use a #8 cap for this explosive to ensure good performance. Taken from the book Improvised plastic explosives Rolf

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